1. WHERE WERE THEY WHEN HE WAS CRUCIFIED - THEY WERE SUPPOSE TO BE
THERE- WHY DID JESUS LEAVE HIS MOTHER TO JOHN THE APOSTLE
2. ALL THE SUPPOSED BROTHERS OF JESUS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE
WERE IDENTIFIED AND THEIR FATHERS TOO WERE IDENTIFIED- AND IT WAS NOT JOSEPH THE SPOUSE of MARY - THE MOTHER OF JESUS
3. WHAT WERE THE NAMES OF THE BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF JESUS - THE GOSPEL WRITER DID NOT EVEN GIVE A NAME TO ANY OF HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS-
4. TODATE NOT A SINGEL LINE COMING FROM THESE ALLEGED BROTHERS AND SISTERS
HAS COME UP NOR HAS ANYONE CLAIMED THAT HE IS A DESCENDANT OF JESUS CHRIST.
NOR WITH ANY OF THE APOSTLES.
NOW HARLAN INSISTS THAT JESUS HAD BROTHERS AND SISTERS JUST TO
SATISFY HIS OWN PERSONAL CONVICTION THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS WRONG.
HE CAN NOT EVEN GIVE A NAME OF HIS FELLOWSHIP NOR SAY WHAT THE DOCTRINES
OF HIS FELLOWSHIP ARE- HE IS TRYING TO PROVE HIS FELLOWSHIP IS THE RIGHT
CHURCH BY PROVING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WRONG.
THIS IS TYPICAL
BECAUSE HARLAN HAS ANCHORED HIS BELIEF THAT JESUS HAD BROTHERS AND SISTERS
ON JUST ONE WORD- "UNTIL"
HE CLAIMS THAT I HAVE BEEN TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES BUT COULD NOT SAY
WHAT I TWISTED.
I HAVE ASKED HIM SEVERAL TIMES WHAT I TWISTED AND HE COULD NOT MENTION EVEN ONE. ALWAYS A BLANK ACCUSATION- AND HE DOES IT MOST OF THE TIME
I ASKED HIM SEVERAL TIMES IF HIS ARGUMENT WILL ONLY BE ANCHORED ON A SINGLE
WORD "UNTIL"- WHICH IS INCONCLUSIVE-
BECAUSE HARLAN IS ALWAYS FOND OF INSISTING HIS OWN OPINION AND PUTTING A
CONCLUSION WHERE THERE IS NONE
BECAUSE HIS CONTENTION IS THAT - IT WAS AFTER THE BIRTH OF JESUS THAT MARY
AND JOSEPH HAD RELATIONS- BECAUSE OF THE WORD "UNTIL"
THEN I ASKED HIM HOW THEN WILL HE INTERPRET THE FOLLOWING VERSES
"I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF THE WORLD" does this mean that after the end of the world Jesus will no longer be with us??
"MICAH THE DAUGHTER OF SAUL DID NOT GIVE BIRTH UNTIL SHE DIES"- does this mean that after she dies she was able to give birth?
I ALSO GAVE ONE WHICH WAS THE RAVEN THAT NOAH SENT OUT TO SCOUT FOR A DRY LAND-
ON BOTH QUERYS HARLAN DID NOT GIVE AN ANSWER BUT KEEPS ON INSISTING HIS
UNTIL OF THE VERSE OF LUKE- THAT MARY AND JOSEPH HAD RELATIONS AFTER JESUS
WAS BORN BECAUSE OF THE WORD UNTIL-
correction : this should be read and not what is posted
MICAH THE DAUGHTER OF SAUL DID NOT GIVE BIRTH UNTIL SHE DIED, does this mean that after she died she was able to give birth to a child?
HARLAN BRAGG:
((Teewee said: MICAH THE DAUGHTER OF SAUL DID NOT GIVE BIRTH UNTIL SHE DIED, does this mean that after she died she was able to give birth to a child?))
My reply: David was Dancing before the Lord in front of the people and she came out ad insulted him.
2SA 6:20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"
Because of this she would bare no children she insulted her husband because David was her husband. Besides David seed with Bathsheba would become the new King.
2SA 6:23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
Doesn't say until just says she had no children.
Nice try tho!
God Bless!
ERICA ERICSSON :
Hi, Harlan. what teewee is trying to point out was that the word "until" meant, according to the writers of the nt with the choice of word they use, that nothing happened afterwards. it just continue to be as it was before.
if "until" means the same until we use in english that means after the appointed time something will definitely happen. but that is not the case.
Teewee gave the example of Michal. "did not give birth 'until' she died". if we understand the word using today's meaning, it means she give birth after she died. she did not give birth after she died. it is because the true meaning of the word "until" ,as used by the biblical writers, is that nothing will happen later on. the state of the person or things will forever be the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Jesus said, "I will be with you 'until' the end of time". it does not mean that when the end comes he will no longer be with us. it means, as was, as is and as will be Jesus will always be with us. the word 'until' meant a continuation, nothing ever changes since the past, the present, up to the future - forever.
Matthew 1:25
But he had no union with her "until" she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
the meaning is the same here. Joseph never had union with Mama Mary before, during her pregnancy and after the birth of Jesus.
that is the true meaning of the word as used by these writers. if we give other meaning to the word "until" then we are not faithful to the scripture. if we take things so literally then the scripture will lose its purpose.
HARLAN BRAGG:
Yes but it doesn't say until Erica it says: 2SA 6:23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
Plain and simple had no children all of her life Teewee added the word until.
TEEWEE DIEGO:
YOU KNOW HARLAN YOU NEVER MET THE ISSUE HEAD ON
WE WERE DEALING WITH THE WORD "until" AND HOW YOU APPLIED IT
ANYWAY I WILL GIVE AN ANSWER AS YOU DID
HARLAN BRAGG:
must have used different version. still the point is the word "until". find out for yourself what it really meant as intended by the writers of the gospel.
God bless, brother.
TEEWEE REPLY
YOU KNOW HARLAN - YOU CHOSE ONLY ONE VERSE TO ANSWER
AND YOU CHOSE THE VERSE THAT DID NOT HAVE THE WORD UNTIL
NOW MY BIBLE DOES NOT HAVE THE WORD UNTIL TOO- IT SAYS THAT JOSEPH DID
NOT HAVE ANY RELATIONS WITH MARY AND THAT IS IT.
BUT I DID NOT USE MY CATHOLIC BIBLE -I USED THE KING JAMES-
NOW HOW ABOUT THE VERSE THAT SAYS
"I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF TIME"
YOU DID NOT ANSWER THIS ONE-
NICE TRY HARLAN HEHEHE
SO NOW WE RESORT TO VERBAL ENGINEERING HEHEHEHEH
NICE TRY HARLAN
I WILL GIVE YOU ANOTHER NICE TRY HARLAN
HEHEHE
HARLAN BRAGG:
I know what it meant when its says Joseph took Mary home as his WIFE and he didn't have UNION or SEXUAL relations UNTIL the child was BORN
MT 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
This verse is so simple and straight forward why are you trying to change its meaning? I can not understand that!
HARLAN BRAGG:
HAHAH YOU ARE STILL FAR AWAY FROM WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND
ANSWER WHAT JESUS SAID - UNTIL THE END OF TIME
TSK TSK PICK AND CHOOSE WHATEVER YOU LIKE
JUST WAIT FOR MY ANSWER
YOU GAVE AN OPINION AGAIN- THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE GOOD AT
HAHAHAHAH I WILL NOT STOP LAUGHING AT YOU
KEEP ON TRYIN MAN
ERICA ERICSSON:
we do not change the meaning. we go back to what it really meant as the writer intended to mean it. if you chose the modern meaning then stick to it, harlan.
you cannot use today's word, the translation of the original word, if you want to get to the true meaning and intent of the writer. if i say, it is raining cats and dogs the people 1000 years from now will be wrong to believe these words as they appear. if they do not go back to our time they will never get it right.
find out yourself what the word "until" really meant according to the writer. this way you do not do injustice to him and does not give another meaning to the verse.
TEEWEE DIEGO:
AFTER MY STORY THAT WILL REALLY REALLY INTIMIDATE HARLAN
I WILL GO TO THE GREEK SIDE OF IT
ERICA ERICSSON:
A brief study of the concept of "until" as used in Matthew 1:25a
"...but he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son." (NIV)
"...but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; (NRSV)
"...and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son." (NKJV)
The Greek word most often translated as "until" is eos (pronounced āōs), and is negated by ouk at the beginning of the phrase, meaning "not."
The modern-day meaning of the word "until" might lead us to think that Joseph "did not know her until..." but that he did afterwards. However, the biblical usage is quite different. In ancient and biblical usage, the word eos is used to designate a "boundary formed by a historical event."[2]
The Greek conjunction eos (till), like the Hebrew ad-ki and the Latin donec, while expressing what has occurred up to a certain period, leaves the future entirely aside"[3]
Here are some cross references to illustrate that ouk...eos it more accurately translated as "not until this important event, but still not after" (i.e. never.)
1) Note Luke 2:36-37, the story of Christ's Presentation at the Temple. The verse describes Anna the prophetess as having lived with her husband for 7 years after their marriage, and then, "she has lived as a widow until (eos) ." At the time of The Presentation of Christ she is still a widow, and will continue to be so after this. The "boundary" historical event is the Presentation of Christ.
2) Another good example of this is Acts 8:40. The verse says "Phillip.... traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until (eos) he reached Caesarea" (NIV) Did Phillip the deacon preach the gospel after he reached Caesarea? Of course he did. The "boundary" historical event is Phillip the deacon's arrival in Caesarea and the word eos is used to denote the importance of this event. He preached before, until this significant event, and still after.
3) Another example is Matthew 24:21, where the use of the word (eos) as having an action as continuing into the future is actually clarified in the text: "then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until (eos) now – and never to be equaled again." This great distress has not been seen until now, and still, will never be seen again.
4) See John 5:17. Jesus is speaking: "My Father is always at work to (eos) this very day, and I, too am working." (NIV) or "My Father has been working until (eos) now..."(NKJV) "My Father is still working, (eos) and I also am working." Clearly Jesus did not mean that His Father was working only until that very day, but still. Jesus' presence on earth was a "boundary" historical event. The Father worked until that day, and still afterwards.
5) other examples: Genesis 8.7 "Noah...sent forth a raven; and it went to and fro till the waters were dried up from the earth."
Psalm 110.1 "the Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou on my right hand until I make thy enemies thy footstool."
See also Isaiah 22.15, Matt 12.20, 1 Tim 4.13, Psalm 90.2, Psalm 72.7
until does not mean something happened after. it means nothing ever happened after. so it really meant Joseph never had union with Mama Mary after the birth of Jesus. we have to be faithful as to what the writer really intend to tell us.
Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of "charitoo." It uses "kecharitomene," while Ephesians 1:6 uses "echaritosen," which is a different form of the verb "charitoo." Echaritosen means "he graced" (or bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p. 166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard Univ Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p. 175).
Kecharitomene meaning "full of grace", a continuation, as always Mama Mary was full of grace, for all time.
HARLAN BRAGG:
((Teewee said: BUT I DID NOT USE MY CATHOLIC BIBLE -I USED THE KING JAMES-NOW HOW ABOUT THE VERSE THAT SAYS))
The King James is an out dated English language which was limited with its translations of words. So the bible scholars saw it fit to redo the King James with a new modern English that could be easily understood.
I mean come on now when was the last time someone said I Spank unto thee thy word or where art thou going?
Key Points
More than 100 scholars from six English-speaking countries, as well as editors and English stylists, worked on the NIV. The scholars represented more than 20 denominations.
In the 17th century, King James translators worked from the Erasmus Greek text of the New Testament. Erasmus had six Greek manuscripts from which to work. NIV translators work from more than 5,000 complete or partial manuscripts and papyri.
It took 10 years to complete the NIV translation. The process started in 1968 and finished in 1978. This does not include more than 10 years of planning before 1968.
The system for editing each book is one of the distinctive features of the NIV. The procedure was as follows:
Initial Translation Team
Intermediate Editorial Committee
General Editorial Committee
Stylist and Critics
Executive Committee (or Committee on Bible Translation)
Final Stylistic Review
Executive Committee's Final Reading
The NIV was created and is maintained with the mandate to accurately and faithfully translate the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic biblical texts into clearly understandable English.
The NIV is the most widely accepted contemporary Bible translation today. More people buy the NIV Bible than any other English-language translation.
TEEWEE DIEGO:
MY CATHOLIC BIBLE SAYS IN MATTHEW 1:25
"so she gave birth to a son and he had not had relations with her. Joseph gave him the name Jesus"
TO the JEWS -YESHUA- means -GOD SAVES- JOSEPH NOW KNEW WHO MARY WAS CONCEIVING
BUT I DID NOT INSIST ON IT- I PLAYED YOUR COURT THE KING JAMES VERSION
LATER ON I WILL GO TO THE GREEK
WHO IS JOSEPH and MARY?
MATTHEW 1:18
This is how Jesus Christ was born. Mary his mother had been given to Joseph in marriage but before they lived together, she was found to be pregnant...
"THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT"-.....I WILL REPEAT THROUGH "THE HOLY SPIRIT"
(the protestant world treat the pregnancy of Mary
as just an ordinary pregnancy as if the holy spirit can just impregnate any woman in this planet, let alone any woman can just give birth to a JESUS CHRIST, why? because it is CATHOLIC AND ANY CATHOLIC BELIEF THEY STAY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROAD- SO TO SPEAK)
.....then Joseph her husband made plans to divorce her in all secrecy.
HE WAS AN UPRIGHT MAN, and in no way did he want to discredit her.....
WHY IN SECRET?- the secret was.. that MARY WAS PREGNANT BECAUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT !!!!! who would ever believe a simple country lass a virgin being
pregnant because of the HOLY SPIRIT. THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL MIGHT BE LAUGHING AT YOU IF YOU SAY THIS.
PUT THIS IN THAT BRAIN OF YOURS HARLAN
and JOSEPH being an upright man married MARY so that the HARSH MOSAIC LAW
will not be imposed on Mary. She will be stoned to death.
MARY the niece of ZECARIAH - the high priest who six months ago just went in to the INNER TEMPLE only done ONCE A YEAR DURING THE FEAST OF THE DAY OF ATONEMENT- OFFERING SACRIFICE FOR THE NATION OF ISRAEL IN ATONEMENT for THEIR SINS- AND to the HIGH PRIESTS OF ISRAEL-they draw lots on who will enter this INNER SANCTUM to make an offering- this is a risky undertaking for a HIGH PRIEST who has not cleansed himself well enough might end up dead. That is why they are tied to their waste so in case he dies - he will be pulled out.
Now Mary who is pregnant and unmarried will be scandalized so much not only in Jerusalem but maybe to the whole nation of Israel being the niece of
the HIGH PRIEST of THE TEMPLE- YOU CAN NOW IMAGINE THE BIG SHAME AND SCANDAL TO THE WHOLE CLAN OF THE HIGH PRIEST ZECARIAH the father of JOHN THE baptist. The jews will be after the stoning of Mary.
the levitical line of MARY- IS "ANAWIM" - THEY ARE JEWS WHO LIVE RIGHTEOUS
AND STRICTLY OBESERVES THE LAW OF MOSES -in other words it is a PURIFIED GROUP in the LEVITICAL TRIBE-
AND GOD CHOSE THE MOTHER OF JESUS from this group.
why was Joseph contemplating to divorce Mary and in no way to discredit her?
Because of fear!!!
Joseph new that MARY now belongs to GOD ALREADY- being pregnant because of
the overshadowing of the HOLY SPIRIT - SHE WAS GOD'S PROPERTY
SHE BECAME THE SPOUSE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT- SHE WAS SACRED GROUND.
and that MARY'S womb has the FIRSTBORNE- THE FIRST TO LEAVE THE WOMB
the JEWS HAD A HIGH REGARD FOR THE FIRSTBORN OF ANY WOMB- READ IN THE OLD
TESTAMENT ABOUT THE FIRSTBORN-
WHEN GOD SETTLED ON MOUNT SINAI TO MEET WITH MOSES AND ON THAT MOUNTAIN
GOD CARVED WITH HIS FINGERS SO TO SPEAK THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ON THE ROCK AND GAVE THE LAWS ON HOW THE JEWS WILL LIVE AND HIS MIGHTY NAME- AND A COVENANT- HE DECLARED THAT MOUNTAIN A SACRED GROUND.
A PRERIMETER WAS EVEN ESTABLISHED AND THOSE WHO VIOLATES THIS PERIMETER WILL DIE- AND INSTRUCTED MOSES TO EVEN TAKE OUT HIS SANDALS.
JOSEPH NEW WHAT BELONGS TO GOD BELONGS TO GOD. DID YOU GET THIS HARLAN
JOSEPH WILL NOT EVEN THINK OF WHAT HARLAN IS ALWAYS THINKING. THAT IS SEX!!
BEFORE JOSEPH WENT TO HIS PLAN OF DIVORCING MARY THINKING THAT HE WAS RIGHT.
BECAUSE MARY IS NOT ORDINARY ANYMORE FOR SHE BELONGS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT- ON
THE OTHER HAND KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES
JOSEPH NEW THAT GOD HATES DIVORCE
THE ANGEL APPEARED TO HER AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID
MATTHEW 1:20
"JOSEPH DESCENDANT OF DAVID "DO NOT BE AFRAID TO TAKE MARY AS YOUR WIFE
SHE WAS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT "
verse 21 "AND WILL BEAR A SON WHOM YOU ARE TO CALL JESUS ( GOD SAVES) FOR HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS"
THAT WAS THE FEAR HARLAN -
THAT IS WHY JOSEPH DID NOT ENTER INTO MARY AND NEVER DID
HE WAS A RIGHTEOUS MAN- NOT LIKE YOU- YOU ONLY SAY IT AND I DONT BELIEVE IT- EVER
BUT YOU HAD NO FEAR IN YOUR THOUGHTS HARLAN THAT IS WHY I NEVER BELIEVED YOU ARE RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE YOU KEEP ON THINKING ABOUT MUNDANE THINGS IN YOUR MIND.
YOU SAY THAT YOU LOVE JESUS OH HOW YOU DECLARE THIS IN ALL YOUR POSTINGS- BUT YOU NEVER TREATED EVERYTHING IN JESUS AS SACRED-
EVERYTHING IN JESUS IS SACRED HARLAN- HIS MOTHER AND HIS FOSTER FATHER JOSEPH GIVE RESPECT WHERE RESPECT IS DUE.
S WILL RECOGNIZE YOU FOR THAT
HOW WILL YOU FEEL IF YOUR FRIEND TREATS YOUR OWN MOTHER COMING INTO
YOU HOUSE AS IF HE SEES YOUR MOTHER A FIXTURE IN YOUR HOUSE.
ONCE AGAIN I WILL REPEAT WHAT YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED
-YOU DID NOT REFUTE ANY OF THE BROTHERS OF JESUS THAT I IDENTIFIED WHO THEIR
FATHERS ARE AND NOT JOSEPH THE HUSBAND OF MARY- YOU SAY THE BIBLE IS NOT
THAT DEEP- BUT YOU WENT TOO DEEP WITH YOUR OPINIONS AND CONCLUSIONS
-HOW ABOUT JESUS WILL NOT BE WITH US ANYMORE AND HE WILL NOT BE
WITH US AFTER THE END OF TIME- WHERE IS MY ANSWER USING YOUR ARGUMENT
TO THE VERSE- NONE- YOU PICKED AND CHOOSE AGAIN
-WHAT ARE THE NAMES OF THE BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF JESUS- AGAIN YOU SAID
THE BIBLE IS NOT THAT DEEP- BUT YOU WERE DEEP IN YOUR OPINIONS
-WHO ARE LIVING PEOPLE THAT CAN BE IDENTIFIED TODAY COMING FROM THE LINE
OF JESUS CHRIST? NO ONE HAS EVER COME UP TO CLAIM THAT JESUS WAS HIS
GRAND DAD.
-WHERE ARE HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS DURING THE TIME OF CRUCIFIXION -WHY DID
JESUS LEAVE HIS MOTHER TO JOHN?? again YOU GAVE NO ANSWER
AND ALL ALONG YOU ANCHORED YOUR ARGUMENT ON JUST ONE WORD - "UNTIL"
"UNTIL" YOU CAN BACK UP YOUR CLAIM THAT JESUS HAD BIOLOGICAL BROTHERS AND SISTERS- YOU WILL COME OUT TO BE A STORY TELLER OF ALL TIMES
REMEMBER THE NUN THAT YOU SAID YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVERT - YOU COULD STARTED WITH THE POPE SO WE CAN EASILY VERIFY
"UNTIL" YOU CAN COME UP WITH SOUND REASONS AND LOGICAL AT THAT
"UNTIL" THEN I WILL BELIEVE YOU
HERE IS ONE BIG ADVISE- GO TO A CREDIBLE BIBLE TEACHER OR COLLEGE-
ESPECIALLY ONE THAT CAN TEACH BIBLICAL HISTORY
THAT HAS HERMENEUTICS AND CAN EXPLAIN THE EXEGIES OF WHAT THE AUTHOR WROTE
IN PLAIN READING YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE AUTHOR TRYING TO SAY.
THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED EXEGIES- KNOW THIS FIRST
PERSONAL CONVICTIONS WILL TAKE YOU NOWHERE AND STILL END UP WITH NOTHING
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